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European! Old! Pretentious!
 Post subject: Re: Sherlock (BBC)- potential for spoilers
PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 8:41 pm GMT 
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*MOAR SPOILERS*

Good analysis of Moriaty’s thinking, JacobGrey! Especially the part about how Moriarty would have no real reason to live on afterwards and how he was removing himself as an obstacle to his own plan to trap Sherlock. I think you’re right. And the comment about the three friends is perceptive too- I think that’s highlighted by the strange choice of Lestrade as choice number three of his three friends.

Though really, I’m not exactly sure how Moriarty would think Sherlock would be able to get that code out of him easily- perhaps he was just bored at that point and wanted to be sure and have it done with. Perhaps it was just that he realised Sherlock wouldn’t jump until he was sure there was no other way and didn’t want the tiresome struggle.

I do think he is convinced and to some degree impressed not only by Sherlock realising that about the code but by what Sherlock says to him about not being ‘ordinary’ and not being ‘one of them’ and that is what made me think he means something related to that when he thanks him.

You know I’m getting some weird feeling that the ‘side of the angels’ was referenced before but I honestly can’t remember at what point. It wasn’t that exact phrasing, but the intention was to point out the differences and similarities of Moriarty and Sherlock as ‘sides’.

As to the evading death plan- yes I agree Molly was responsible for helping him and I did also notice that there was a truck full of what looked like rather soft materials nearby- perhaps in reality he fell into that (this doesn’t work very well irl but this is fiction we’re talking about!). I imagined Molly would be responsible for providing a substitute body and then helping to hide him.

Given that it actually probably was Sherlock lying on the pavement, can it be assumed that as John was knocked over with the bike, Sherlock had time to fall into the truck and then crawl out to lie on the pavement and cover himself in blood? For some reason this is a slightly ridiculous notion, hah. Wouldn’t other people notice that as well? Yet people noticing is also a problem with any sort of body swap scenario.

Thanks for that article about the out of character thing- I was rather driven mad trying to wrack my brain thinking about what clue he could mean! The Molly thing isn’t really a clue, I mean it’s part of the plot, not a side issue, and I’m sure people didn’t miss that.

*this is sort of a potential spoiler of something already spoilerish!*

But having poked about a bit on the internet and read the views of people more observant and knowledgeable than I, I think what he’s referring to is the rubber ball Sherlock was bouncing in the lab. My mind registered that as odd, but I had no means of attaching this to anything relating to the plot, but folks on the internet have pointed out that you can use this as a ‘magic trick’ to stop your pulse. That doesn’t really seem out of character exactly, more like just an unexplained clue that was never followed through on.

This part is why I think it’s probably Sherlock lying on the pavement that John sees rather some sort of strange manipulation.

One thing which I can’t admit that I remembered at the end whilst watching but noticed at the time is that Moriarty actually somehow got that girl to think that Holmes was the culprit. I wonder what that has to do with things, if anything? I’ve heard some say this means there was some sort of Sherlock ‘double’, or some sort of make up or mask that could make someone look like him, but that seems a bit far fetched.. Obviously though Moriarty did SOMETHING to make the girl think that Sherlock was the culprit as part of his plan.

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 Post subject: Re: Sherlock (BBC)- potential for spoilers
PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 1:08 am GMT 
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Graid wrote:
You know I’m getting some weird feeling that the ‘side of the angels’ was referenced before but I honestly can’t remember at what point. It wasn’t that exact phrasing, but the intention was to point out the differences and similarities of Moriarty and Sherlock as ‘sides’.
I believe Moriarty first said that during his visit to Sherlock at 221B, right after the trial.

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 Post subject: Re: Sherlock (BBC)- potential for spoilers
PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 4:21 am GMT 
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SPOILERS, no one is surprised

Hehee, this is getting in-depth :3 The nerd in me loves this kind of talk :3

Graid wrote:
Given that it actually probably was Sherlock lying on the pavement, can it be assumed that as John was knocked over with the bike, Sherlock had time to fall into the truck and then crawl out to lie on the pavement and cover himself in blood? For some reason this is a slightly ridiculous notion, hah. Wouldn’t other people notice that as well? Yet people noticing is also a problem with any sort of body swap scenario.


I was wondering perhaps if everyone else in the street is planted as well? The cyclist obviously knocks John over on purpose (I say "obviously", I mean "obviously if this theory is right" haha), and the nurses that gather the "body" must be aware that he is still alive because otherwise you'd have people examining his none-too-convincing fake injuries. Looking around on ze internet, some people have theorised that the cyclist is Molly's brother (not sure why, perhaps there is a resemblance, can't remember seeing him). The drivers of the truck had to be in on it in order to keep the truck there. If all these people are in on it, why not everyone who gathers around the body, stops John getting *too* close, and pulls him away? The obvious hole in this logic though is that there would be a lot of people who realised that Sherlock wasn't dead; I'm not sure how they would manage those people. Especially if Sherlock can't even tell John, who he trust more than anyone else, haha.

Graid wrote:
This part is why I think it’s probably Sherlock lying on the pavement that John sees rather some sort of strange manipulation.

One thing which I can’t admit that I remembered at the end whilst watching but noticed at the time is that Moriarty actually somehow got that girl to think that Holmes was the culprit. I wonder what that has to do with things, if anything? I’ve heard some say this means there was some sort of Sherlock ‘double’, or some sort of make up or mask that could make someone look like him, but that seems a bit far fetched.. Obviously though Moriarty did SOMETHING to make the girl think that Sherlock was the culprit as part of his plan.


I've also read some theories that John may have been drugged by the cyclist by a quick spray of the Baskerville drug to make sure he "sees" dead Sherlock. Not sure I subscribe to that one, as the blow to the head as he hit the pavement would have been enough to cause the wincing etc, and I'm sure the shock of seeing one's best friend jump to their death would also provide that dazed look/slow-motion feeling he seems to be experiencing. It would add an extra layer of intrigue if that was the case though.

Also, re: the double; I'm not sure what to make of this one either! Part of me thinks, all Moriarty had to do was show the girl a picture and tell her repeatedly that this was the man who had them kidnapped and if she ever saw him in real life that meant he was going to kill her and her brother, and she'd scream her head off. But, the idea of a double would certainly provide a nice convenient body. The way I see it, it hinges on Mycroft, really: if he's involved (his reaction shot at the end was fairly ambiguous), then he could have provided a nice body from the secret service or something, and all's well. If he's not, then I imagine it would be quite hard for Molly to sneak a body out of the morgue, and perhaps there would need to be a double. Oh - OH HANG ON

No one in the news articles, or even the clip on John's blog, mentioned Moriarty's death. Maybe they used his body!! (... Actually now I think of it that seems pretty obvious. Now I feel slow for not having thought of it earlier)


And, actually, a phrase from that article I linked to has been sticking in my head all night. Something about Sherlock throwing away his phone. Do you suppose there's some sort of evidence on there, and no one has yet retrieved it? What if he recorded the final conversation between him and Moriarty? Pure speculation, naturally :D

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Embodiment of contradictions
 Post subject: Re: Sherlock (BBC)- potential for spoilers
PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:40 pm GMT 
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I hereby petition to rename this thread "English people and English stuff".

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Ahoy!
 Post subject: Re: Sherlock (BBC)- potential for spoilers
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 8:30 am GMT 
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For the record, I am not an English person, though if I were I'm sure I would sound much more intelligent when speaking.

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Hey kid.
 Post subject: Re: Sherlock (BBC)- potential for spoilers
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 9:02 am GMT 
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SPOILERS OH LOOK AT THAT I BET YOU DIDN'T SEE THIS COMING.


This entire series was an absolute joy, and at the end and absolute heartbreak. The writers simply soared, Adler utterly seduced everyone, Henry was adorable and insane, the poor test experiment. Moriarty was charmingly, upsettingly and outrageously savage and suave.
And Cumberbatch and Freeman... are both absolute gods. The final scene of the Fall was some of the best acting I've ever seen, as well as the moment at the grave-- *bites knuckles and clutches heart*

I found this episode so moving in that you could see each strand of Moriarty’s web slowly but surely tightening around Sherlock… Binding him and stripping him of his closest allies. The growing suspicion in the police force, the blind, eager hatred of the media… Even his own brother sees his as somewhat dispensable, something to be sold for a few snatches of information from a maniac. The sight of this genius being dragged down to his knees, made a fugitive was so appalling and unexpected… As well as the calm and dignified way in which he dealt with it. When he knew the police— comprised of individuals evidently keen for his blood— would be coming, he didn’t struggle, didn’t use violence; simply shrugged on his coat, fixed his scarf… Still a figure of incredible pride and composure.

And yet the telling way in which the one moment he truly felt a fear so strong he needed to lash out was when the thought that John was starting to be torn away and that he could think him a fraud. It just made that final phone call all the more awful. In an attempt— however futile— to somehow assuage the grief he knew John would feel, he was willing to destroy his own legacy, his own heart, in the desperate hope that doing so would ease his best friend’s pain. Trapped and alone, his last act as “Sherlock Holmes” was dragging his name through the gutter, to present it to the man whose opinion of it is the only thing that matters to him.

Not only was he sacrificing his life as "Holmes", he was sacrificing so much more.


BUT. ONTO HOW HE DID IT. AND HOW THAT SORT OF CONTRASTS.


I don't really get along with the idea of Moriarty's "Sherlock mask" being put on his dead body and throwing him off. I'm guessing Moriarty showed the girl a picture of Sherlock with a message something along the lines of "This man is one of mine and he will kill you, dear." *insert manic Irish laughter here* rather than doing some elaborate waxwork design made and casually walking up with it to the middle of a rooftop. Really? Pulling at straws, methinks.

As for the concealment of the body... Well. Dear Molly Hooper. We all know how that goes down. (Besides, he's already helped disguise Adler's supposed corpse, so he's a deft hand at arranging those sorts of things and doubtless giving out tips on how to fake a dead man. Sigh. So cavalier.)

As for the suicide itself, whilst I am leaning towards the "van full of delightfully soft and squishy and bouncy articles in the back" side, coupled with the bouncing ball analogy thing... Moffat and Gatiss' trolling habits have made me feel uncomfortable about that too. Besides, the van was parked on the road. Sherlock more or less stepped off that building; he hardly took a running leap. Ooooh, I don't know.

Also! So I thought the cyclist was staged, but the more I think about it I believe it was a genuine accident. Sherlock pleads with him to "Keep your eyes on me, John, promise me you'll do that." He was making John promise not to snatch his gaze away when he fell... Had he kept looking, I'm certain he would have seen how Sherlock did it; Sherlock didn't want John to see him die.

He wanted John to see him survive.


..... Which makes it all so very much worse.

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Ahoy!
 Post subject: Re: Sherlock (BBC)- potential for spoilers
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 9:11 am GMT 
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Nerfiti wrote:
Also! So I thought the cyclist was staged, but the more I think about it I believe it was a genuine accident. Sherlock pleads with him to "Keep your eyes on me, John, promise me you'll do that." He was making John promise not to snatch his gaze away when he fell... Had he kept looking, I'm certain he would have seen how Sherlock did it; Sherlock didn't want John to see him die.

He wanted John to see him survive.
OH MY GOD

I need to retreat to a dark room to think about all this.

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Hey kid.
 Post subject: Re: Sherlock (BBC)- potential for spoilers
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 9:17 am GMT 
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I KNOW. I realised it today and basically blanked out in the middle of a sentence in English.

"I think what Carter was meaning to emphasise in the Bloody Chamber concerning female sexuality-- and in particular this heroine's tentative acceptance of her own sado-masochist tendencies --hinted at in the language used in the library scene-- is sort of in keeping with Sade's-- WAIT WHAT HOLD ON ONE MOMENT WAIT DID HE MEAN-- ........ Sorry, Ms C. I am going to have to cut this short and freak out quietly into my copy of Wuthering Heights. I'll be back with you when the parameters of my mind have settled down."

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Literary Revolutionary
 Post subject: Re: Sherlock (BBC)- potential for spoilers
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 11:01 am GMT 
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WHAT DVORAK SAID

Wh- Oh my - But - You -

This would tie in with everything he was saying. 'It's all a trick... watch me very carefully as I perform this trick, John... John? Wh- OH, DAMN CYCLISTS, GET A TAXI YOU HIPPY" ahahaha XD

Seriously though, in other news, what the hell is up with him never looking at the face of the cab driver before he gets in? Did that case teach him nothing? XD

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European! Old! Pretentious!
 Post subject: Re: Sherlock (BBC)- potential for spoilers
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 11:41 am GMT 
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(For the record only two of the people who have posted on this thread have been English..)

I agree that the unravelling aspect and the pain of Sherlock thinking maybe Watson’s faith in him is wavering makes it powerful (I think his earlier ‘you care what people think of me?’ confusion is a huge part of that).

And the acting was really excellent, particularly Benedict. You really see here the depth of his portrayal and the emotional range he can bring to a fairly cold mannered character, especially in the rooftop scene. When he comes back from the brink, it’s just.. glorious, powerful acting. I’ve been holding back on rewatching the rooftop bits even though I want to recheck facts of what happened because I feel I should watch them only in context out of respect for that acting and the power of the scene! Although I suppose I should hurry up and do it before they take the episode off iplayer.

Intriguing idea Nerfiti!

But I do not see why he would have made the call, the ‘note’, if NOT to make John a witness to his apparent genuine suicide. To me it wasn’t so much that he told John what he did to ease his grief as because otherwise, his committing suicide would make no sense. I mean he’s using his own friend here as a witness to his apparent suicide and to conclude the narrative Moriarty set up, I’m not convinced sparing his feelings is at the forefront of his mind.

That’s probably actually what Sherlock’s tearful about, the thought of John’s image of him having to be destroyed out of necessity, and probably to an extent the thought of the pain it will cause him. If he’d wanted John to see him survive, it would have been ‘okay John, I’m going to have to disappear for a while, here’s what I want you to tell people-‘

I saw Sherlock’s insistence on looking at him and keeping away as being about keeping John somewhere that he couldn’t see well enough what was happening, and perhaps so that he could be intercepted by the cyclist.

Really, any way you look at it, it has to be Sherlock that jumps. Somebody is jumping. If it’s not Sherlock, where the hell would he get someone else to impersonate him to jump off a building? It’s not like it’s a corpse falling off, it’s clearly a living body. Ergo, Sherlock must somehow hit the ground without killing himself, and the only way to do that that’s been presented to us is landing in the truck. He HAS to land on something soft, since he doesn’t have a bungee cord on him, hah.

Since it has to be Sherlock that jumps, I think the most likely explanation is that it IS Sherlock that John sees, stopping his pulse with a rubber ball and covered in fake blood (where’d he get that from? No idea!). In fact I will be rather disappointed if it turns out it was only Sherlock in John’s mind, as that seems something of a cheat given the way it was presented to us! And again, Sherlock did jump, so he must be in the vicinity, and bringing out a body to impersonate him and dumping the body on the ground is sillier and more conspicuous than him crawling out and faking being dead himself.

JacobGrey-

The mobile phone is interesting, but to me his throwing it away suggests that it doesn’t have anything much worth having on it. He wouldn’t throw it if he wanted the information to have a specific destiny. I mean it’s like putting an important message in a bottle in the ocean vs safeguarding it so that only the people you want to see it see it. He could have jumped with the phone and gotten someone to hand it to John (it seems likely the information would survive the fall if he’d jumped with it in his pocket, as he would have landed feet first if following the correct way to land in a jump like this), or arranged for it to be taken by Molly if there was a need for what was on it. Nevertheless it still is possible it has a part to play evidence wise even if he did something unwise with it.

With regards to the double thing, what I don’t get is why they didn’t explain that if it wasn’t important, but I suppose maybe it was a red herring.

As to using Moriarty’s body, yes it’s possible, but the logical problem with that would be that there would be a super obvious discrepancy between Moriarty and Sherlock’s body. It seems more likely they’d use a more Sherlock- like body, but maybe not, depends how secure they were that it would never been investigated. I can certainly see the dramatic possibility occurring of them exhuming Sherlock and finding instead Moriarty. Sherlock would be in deep trouble though unless there was evidence of what Moriarty did to him.

Incidently some folks on the internet are pointing out that Rhodenendrum Ponticum got a mention in the episode, and that was a moment that jarred with me too, but again I had no way of making sense of what it meant since I'd forgotten it could be used as a poison to mimic death. It could have been used to prolong the appearance of death for Sherlock, but apparently it can't be used quickly and has to be a long term thing, so it doesn't fit that well.

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Literary Revolutionary
 Post subject: Re: Sherlock (BBC)- potential for spoilers
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 12:19 pm GMT 
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Graid wrote:
With regards to the double thing, what I don’t get is why they didn’t explain that if it wasn’t important, but I suppose maybe it was a red herring.


I almost forgot about red herrings! Haha, now I'm hoping that loads of the things we were presented with were merely red herrings, because that would be awesome. I can just imagine them chuckling on set, "Haha, that'll fool 'em! Imagine the fan theories we'll get with this!"

Graid wrote:
He HAS to land on something soft, since he doesn’t have a bungee cord on him, hah.


HOHOHO How amusing would it be if he did? XD XD Slightly unconvincing, falling to one's death only to bounce up again XD

I've been talking with someone on twitter today about the hilarity that would ensue if someone decide to do like A Very Potter Musical, but with Sherlock. It would be called Dr Watson's Singalong Blog, of course. Deciding what other famous musical songs they could sing (with lyrical moderations) is a fun game XD For example, in the Belgravia scenes -

Irene Adler - Diamonds are a girl's best friend (with a reprise by Moriarty in the crown jewels dance sequence)
John - Mister Cellophane (with an extra verse about not being gay either thank you very much, segueing nicely into:)
Mrs Hudson - If You Were Gay ("Margaret across the road had a son who was gay, and he's quite well-off now!" "I'm NOT GAY, Mrs Hudson...")

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I think I'm adorable
 Post subject: Re: Sherlock (BBC)- potential for spoilers
PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 4:34 am GMT 
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I just watched the "A Scandal in Belgravia" from Dailymotion. I'm pretty sure that it is all legal, at least according to Wikipedia. And if it's not legal, than I'm going to go shoot myself. And I still had to watch at least one episode of it. I can't wait till SUMMER to see it. It's just too long time.

Anyways, I haz no words for how good all of it was. The acting, the music and basically how they converted the story from the 19th century to the 21st. And it ended in the most magnificent way ever. And the music made it even better. Anyways, a great show. The first season was also genious. I have it on DVD and I have watched it already a couple of times.


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It's always the quiet ones...
 Post subject: Re: Sherlock (BBC)- potential for spoilers
PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 1:43 am GMT 
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I finally gave in and watched the second season without the rest of my family. I'm sorry but they are so slow with things like this. I know I'm a terrible person. Must have more! Oh this is so infuriating. I hate it when television shows leave me with cliff hangers like that. Yet I love it so very much.

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abbie
 Post subject: Re: Sherlock (BBC)- potential for spoilers
PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 12:04 am GMT 
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SPOILERISH SPOILERS OF SPOILING

As regards The Fall, I've read so many theories. So. Many. Theories. A couple of things:

1. One I saw someone else on the internet mention and I think possible: What if both the cyclist who knocks John over and the people that cluster around the fallen Sherlock are all part of his homeless network? The cyclist knocks John over to delay him getting to the body and the people that gather around Sherlock keep John from examining the body too closely.
Also, when Sherlock stands on the ledge for the first time, we only see him from the shoulders up as he looks down and around. It's possible he was texting the Homeless Network, giving them a heads-up.

2. As Graid mentioned above: Rhododendron Ponticum. Sherlock says it once. It is never brought up again.

ALSO:
I noticed something interesting in their last conversation. Paraphrased:
Sherlock: I'm a fake. I looked you up so I could impress you.
John: Shut up, Sherlock. The first time we met you knew all about my sister!
Except ... he didn't. He didn't know Harry was a girl. If he'd really looked up John, he would have found a birth certificate for a Harriet Watson, and he would have found some convincing lie for how he figured out that 'Harry' referred to his sister. If he was trying to impress John, wouldn't that be the cherry on top? "And he knew Harry was a girl! THE MAN'S A GENIUS."
On a related note ... why on earth would he be trying to impress John? Seriously, why John? Outwardly, John's a nice guy, but pretty boring until adrenaline is involved, and he starts the story with an almost debilitating limp. [sarcasm]Obviously the kind of guy with a crowd of admirers.[/sarcasm] Not even his therapist, the sort of person who's supposed to know this kind of thing, saw his Blood Knight* tendencies -- how would someone like stalker!Sherlock see it?
And how'd he get Stamford in on it?
"Stamford I just had a great idea we should prank somebody into thinking I'm the SMARTEST MAN EVAR!"
"What an awesome idea!"
"IKR??"
"Sherlock you're amazing! And have I got the guy for you!"


Sorry for the long post. It's 2AM and I love this show like crazy.

*Link to the black hole known as TV Tropes. CLICK AT YOUR PERIL.

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 Post subject: Re: Sherlock (BBC)- potential for spoilers
PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 1:42 am GMT 
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It's weird-last week a girl I knew was borrowing this on DVD from her friend, and this week when my brother's friend was over he was obsessing on how my brother needed to watch this show. It's like all of a sudden I can't escape it.

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